ed burke fb thread 12-19-2014

Ed Burke

December 19 at 10:45am · Edited

As someone who attended last night’s meeting I found myself with more questions than answers. In an effort to try and educate myself I sat and listened to all sides over the 3 ½ hours (didn’t need to be that long at all) I came away with a couple of questions that I hope to get some answers to:

The NPBOE in there resolution stated “THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the New Paltz Central School District Board of Education declares its strong opposition to the Town siting the sewage treatment plant adjacent to or within reasonable proximity to the High School or any other school for reasons of health, safety and welfare of students and staff; “ What would be a reasonable proximity? I know there are other sites under consideration.

    Amy Dooley Mosbacher What other sites are being studied Ed? I haven't seen that anywhere.

    Ed Burke It wasnt clear. What I heard was a possible connection to Park Point, possible new treatment plant on 32N in the Village that Sewer 6 could tie into, and there was another property that was ruled out. It was a long meeting. Amy what would you consider a reasonable proximity?

    Steve Greenfield Ed, speaking only for myself, I would consider "reasonable proximity" to be one that could provide substantial assurance that this would not happen. I am choosing this example because it is the very sewage plant that Dave Clouser mentioned last night as being a good example of a plant near a school that's been safely operating for a long time. The land currently proposed was deep underwater at this same time, for this same reason. I hope this isn't too much to ask.

http://dmna.ny.gov/pressroom/?id=1318970765

    NYS DMNA Press Release: New York Air National Guard Cleans Middleburgh High...

   

    Ed Burke Steve agreed, but would that distance be?

    Steve Greenfield And it's also important to remember that this is a school. The proposed site is not 900 feet from the school. It's less than 100 feet. One would think a youth athletics leader like Kevin Barry would be acutely aware of that, and arguing to protect it. The playing fields are part of the school, not just the parts inside the bricks.

    Steve Greenfield The distance would depend on variables. That's why it's better not to be specific, and just have planners of sewage disclose what they're doing case by case. For example, a plant on high ground could possibly be closer as the crow flies than one in lowlands that readily floods. Or one on a downhill that's flowing in the opposite direction from the school could be closer than one on a downhill side that's flowing towards the school. One cannot make a blanket distance in feet.

    Steve Greenfield But one thing is absolute: anywhere kids go is "school." Not a physical structure. Parking lots, ballfields, anywhere kids go.

    Ed Burke Steve I believe you are the chair for facilities for the School. Were you surprised at all with what Dave Clouser disclosed about the water treatment issues at the HS? I dont recall the specifics but that there were no plans with the BOH or DEC and the permits are expired? If I did not summerize this properly I apologize- too much popcorn at the meeting

    Steve Greenfield Interesting thing, Ed, is that Dave didn't actually describe any issues with water treatment at the school, so no, I was not surprised at all. He didn't speak to anyone at the school, nor did he make any observations of any kind. He raised some issues about DEC procedures, which is not my wheelhouse, and has nothing to do with the school district. Surely you're at least as curious as I am about why Kevin Barry's son made the only attempt at an observation, rather than the Town's expert who was tasked with the report, and that nothing wrong was revealed by the young Barry. Aren't people with ownership and immediate family connections to ownership legally barred from these kinds of activities on behalf of the government? I'll save you the research time: yes. And yet there it was, presented at a Town Board meeting.

    Unlike Kevin, Susan, and Jeff (because I will not use the term Town Board as long as they're exluding Dan from access to the information he's required to be given), the School District is an open book. All Dave needed to do is talk to our staff.

    Steve Greenfield Any further questions about specifics of our system will have to be directed to our professional staff whose contact information is on our website. I do not personally operate or test the system. I am oversight, not operations. If you have any questions about saxophones or pianos, I'll do my best.

    Ed Burke Steve so the school district has an in force SPIDIES (not sure on spelling) permit? I thought I heard it lapsed. Would that fall under oversight

    Michael O'Donnell Ed Burke, what I remember as concrete data on locations was the following:

    1. The Ohioville plant is not an option because the DEC will not approve any additional flow at that facility (since it dumps into a wetland).

    2. Connection to Park Point has been ruled out. The reason why was not disclosed. That came up when I asked the question (from the Clouser-Moriello memo) about the first location that "became unavailable".

    3. Jason West recently contacted the Town about connecting the South Putt corridor to the Village system.

    Sue Zimet mentioned toward the end that the High School location was not her favorite and implied that there is a second location. No idea where that is.

    Terrence Quinn Ed Burke let me take a shot. Non adjacent (1/4 mile?) non line of sight. The proposed system still produces the same amount of by products per unit of waste as other systems. The comment about reduced odor is due to air being forced through the system. Overly simplying this... They are reducing the odor potential by blowing the air away from the plant. One of the byproduct to worry about are sulfides. These are heavier than air and can spread long distances per the Published MSDS. So they will move away from the plant staying low to the ground following the path of least resistance. The proposed layout I saw shows no trees between the proposed plant and the school and fields. So the sulfides hang around the school and fields till moved out by weather or breathed in. According to CDC 10% of kids have respiratory issues (asthma etc). So subjecting a more at risk population to it for 7 hrs a day for multiple years does not seem wise.

    Ed Burke Terrance thank you

    Eric Schwartz I'm gonna go with...a flood plain away?

    Eric Schwartz I think a better way to phrase the question is: "how many ways can a Town Board member figure out how to sell their land to either the Town or School District?".

    Ed Burke Eric how much distance would that be?

    Steve Greenfield Ed, are you unsatisfied with the list of criteria I provided that could, along with other possible factors, influence the proper distance, and that it is not an exact one-size-fits-all measurement?

    And now a question from me: can we all agree that the actual distance of under 100 to a couple of hundred feet (depending on which tank you measure from, and to which point along the property line), in a lowlands that regularly floods, is too close? Because what we're talking about is an actual "site-specific conceptual design that's being submitted to the county under the name shovel-ready" (see, I didn't call it a "site plan, which some consider a term of art, rather than a plan for a site) that is actually proposed to be situated right alongside the actual New Paltz High School?

    Because I'm really hoping, especially given what we know about the terrible sewage flood at Middleburgh High School in 2011, that for starters, we can all agree on that. Once we make sure that's not going to happen, then I'll be happy to talk about other sites, or what kind of industry we might attract, as I have many times before. But right now, something dangerous and time-sensitive is in our laps. First things first.

    Eric Schwartz I'm not really sure Ed - how far...not-adjacent...Maybe there is more land a Town Board member has for sale?

    Ed Burke There is a map of the light industrial zone. I am trying to figure out what the consensus is on a distance based on the resolution the BOE outlined.

    Ed Burke Steve I am not an expert on sewage systems. Are the systems designed today better than the one the HS is using now. Do the systems today use chemicals? I am asking these ??? To try and better understand it

    Ed Burke Eric move past Kevin already. Would any of you be any less stirred up if the property were owned by anyone else

    Ed Burke Steve this town/village seems to always looks at issues in silos or vacuums. I can't stand that. Put the sewage treatment place anywhere else. What businesses would be acceptable within certain distances of the HS is absolutely relevant to me because it appears water and sewer is coming

    Kathleen KT Tobin I'm inclined to first explore hooking up to our existing system. I believe Jason West has voiced that it is a possible option.

    Jason West I don't know if its workable, but you'd think it would be explored

    Kathleen KT Tobin Also, if this is primarily for the water park proposal, shouldn't they be building any needed sewage treatment infrastructure?

    Eric Schwartz is this a Common Core trick question? Is this to get us to explore ideas that would normally be rejected outright based on common sense, in order to examine another perspective?

    Kathleen KT Tobin http://www.dailyfreeman.com/.../most-of-susan-zimets...

    Most of Susan Zimet’s campaign money in Assembly race came from owner of New...

    dailyfreeman.com

    Amy Dooley Mosbacher Ed, in my view there are plenty of businesses that do not cause health risks or need to house large amounts of dangerous chemicals that could be close to a school.

    Amy Dooley Mosbacher Ed, there was a great thread between Mike Mike Russo and Dominick Profaci that explained very clearly why this is not a good idea on the New Paltz School Budget Watch page. I've learned more about sewage plants in the last week than I ever thought I would know.

    Ed Burke Amy I too am trying to understand as much as I can

    Ed Burke Eric if your asking me this my answer would be no and no

    Mike Russo Ed Burke - this may help

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/npzsbw/permalink/898756910134748/

    Ed Burke Mike thank you. Read that a few minutes ago

    Steve Greenfield Ed, the corridor has been zoned light industrial for 54 years, and is still almost entirely undeveloped. This "it's coming now" outlook is people trying to win elections, and, unfortunately, trying to line their pockets with taxpayer money. I understand the problem of short policy sightlines that you mention, but sometimes the problem is immediate. Right now I have two big problems, and a small handful of self interested people have tied them together -- unfortunately, right around me, since I'm on the School Board. Those issues are extending the lifespans of our schools to secure the quality gains of the last decade for the next generation, and to prevent the construction of a commercial-scale sewage plant in a flood zone alongside one of our schools. I will be delighted to talk to you about the long-range issues after those fires are extinguished.

    I would appreciate your leadership on these matters. Surely you can see that the same people who are attacking the idea of the high school being in the industrial zone are the very same people who are insisting we should move 500 more, younger, kids into what on some days they say is a better place, supposedly safe from drugs (which is false), and on other days, is too dangerous even for the high school kids that are there since the 1960s. But at the same time they also want not only to double the student population in the zone, and lower its average age, but also to surround them with both biohazards and even more trucks. I know you have friendships within what's going on, but if you really want to get out of the silos, the first thing you have to do is help us get some breathing space.

    Others have said this, and they're right. What makes New Paltz what it is today is our public education system, and that's what will make or break us tomorrow. Nobody will move here if the education system is in decline. Nobody will open businesses here if people don't want to live here, and operate service businesses for those industries. So I ask you these two things: help us get the schools renovated, and help us stop this one location for a sewage plant. Don't just cast a good vote -- step up to a public role.

    If we can solve these two problems, we can move on to the rest. If we don't solve these two problems, we can't move on to the rest, because we still have these two huge problems to deal with. So how about it? Lend a hand. Let's get over this hump so we can move ahead.

fran wishnick fb thread 12-19-2014

Fran Wishnick

December 19 at 12:21pm

I was there last night for most of it. At the risk of angering just about everyone, I believe that we, as a community, don't know how to talk to each other. It's not just a town/school board thing although it's pretty clear to me that somewhere along the line of the feasibility study when the proposed site became more definitive, there should have been notification to the school system as an adjoining property. Questions about a proposed sewage system abound - here are just a few of mine: are shovel ready sites appropriate for New Paltz (less review), are we within or past the original timeframe of tying it in with road improvements on S. Putt Rd, are price negotiations with a landholder mandated or appropriate in a feasibility study, is it true that the high school septic field discharge does not have proper permits and that there are problems in the septic field?

Those are just a few. My biggest concern though is how and if we can join together as a community to guide our future. Whether that sounds goody-goody or angers everyone, that is what needs to happen and fast.

    Daniel Torres "My biggest concern though is how and if we can join together as a community to guide our future." Well stated!

    Tim Hunter By working together rather than politics and attacking as some do

    David Gilmour I once heard someone recommend plnning

mike russo fb thread - 12-19-2014 - sewage treatment plants and the moving bed bioreactor system

Mike Russo -

December 19 at 3:00pm

Sewage Treatment Plants and the Moving Bed BioReactor System

All other issues aside in this sewer fiasco, can we devote some space to talk just about treatment facilities and MBBR, which Dave Clouser proposed he would recommend if a plant was situated on the Barry property?

From what I read on the web, MBBR sounds like a highly regarded system but I have no basis of knowledge to draw any conclusion. Can anyone with knowledge or experience comment on MBBR and whether it would adequately contain odors and harmful substances, such that its impact on the High School would be negligible, as I think Dave C. was representing last night?

And besides those two chronic problems typical of treatment plants, what about the acceptable risks aspect? Are there catastrophic possibilities not just with MBBR but with pipes and holding tanks and leach fields and runoff that are within worrisome probabilities that could affect the High School population? Dave C. related information from a plant operator of a system in Middleburgh located right next to a ball field that was problem-free for 22 years, but this morning Steve posted a photo reminder that Middleburgh was one of the upstate towns that were devastated by Hurricane Irene flooding. So how did that and other treatment plants and adjoining properties fare due to those floods? Is there any reason to think that MBBS does a better job of containment in flood circumstances.  Tim Rogers mentioned in his public comment last night that Dominick Profaci has expertise in this area. Nick -- can you comment?

   Dominick Profaci OK, let's see what I can do here. The MBBR is a package plant activated sludge system. The moving bed description refers to plastic media that is contained in the liquid column of the activated sludge to allow for more surface area for biomass to grow on to help with the treatment of the waste. Air is diffused into the water column of the activated sludge, as it is needed by both the suspended and attached bomass in their conversion of the waste.

   Mike Russo Nick -- is the MBBR system used for primary waste or is it typically a secondary stage treatment?

   Dominick Profaci  These systems can function very well for their purpose; but just like any other activated ludge systems can generate odors and volatilize potentially unhealthy organisms to the surrounding area. I can tell you first hand, as a past treatment plant operator and troubleshooter, that I always got colds/flus after visting waste water plants. When you are in them regularly, your immune systems actually get stronger, but if not working in the process every day, it is very easy to get sick - especially if your immune systems aren't at 100%

   Dominick Profaci  Odors from any waste water facility can come from hydrogen sulfide (rotten eggs), mercaptans (rotten cabage), or a myriad of other volatile organic and inorganic compounds. Most of these, even after diluted by the surrounding air, are highly perceptible by the human nose. They have extremley low odor sensory thresholds and can carry for long distances. At best these odors are obnoxios and sometimes they can cause nausea. These come from both the liquid waste water as well as the sludges that are produced from the process.

   Mike Russo  So although MBBR uses ultraviolet light instead of chlorine as a disinfecting agent, there still would be safety issues simply because waste matter and sewage is being processed?

   Dominick Profaci  Another real concern with package plants are their limited abilility to deal with potentially highly varying flows. When they are designed, they are designed based on a flow peaking factor - utilizing assumed average daily flows. What can be problematic is when these newly designed facilities are tied into an aged collection system. Most of these older collection systems are no longer water tight. They are prone to inflow (water from the surface) and infiltration (water from the ground). During heavy rainfall events, flows can increase dramatically and easily overwhelm a small package facility that is not designed to deal with "combined sewers." This can lead to only partiallly treated - non permit compliant - waste water being discharged to the receiving stream and/or overflow of the various tankage at the plant site. Another, potentially hazardous situation.

   Mike Russo Also, in such a compact plant design, although I understand where the fully processed waste water would go, I don't under what happens to the fully processed sludge. Is that simply put into the ground?

   Dominick Profaci  Mike to answer some of your questions, with small package plants like these, they typically treat all the influent flows, minus some screening to remove very large solids, through the one system. There isn't primary segregated from seconday treatment. As for health and safety, yes, although the chemical hazards may be reduced by not using strong oxidizers, like chlorine, to disnfect the effluent waste water; the bio-hazards would still exist. And as for the sludge, I have seen systems where they use dissolved air floatation to thicken the sludge and others where they use gravity thickening. I don't know what is envisioned here. I also don't know what the plan is to treat that sludge - another bio-hazard. They could either treat on-site - too many options to list here - or store it and have it trucked to a larger waste water facility that accepts other facility sludges for treatment. In any case, there will be odors and potential hazards.

   Dominick Profaci By the way Mike, the sludge has to be treated as it is laden with pathogenic organisms. It can't just "be put on the ground."

   Mike Russo Forgive my near-total ignorance on the subject. So, even after MBBR or whatever treatment system has processed the sewage, the residual sludge after processing is still not inert and safe?

   Dominick Profaci  The MBBR, or any activated sludge system's purpose is to remove contaminants from the water column. Some of these contaminants end up in the resultant sludges. These sludges must then be processed to destroy any disease causing pathogens. Hope this helps.

    Mike Russo Thanks so much, Nick for all the clarifications -- definitely a great help. It's Friday night so people might be socializing (or in Steve G.'s case, working), but maybe some folks will have other questions or comments on this same subject that they want to post on this thread. If so, I would greatly appreciate any further input and expertise you can share.

    Dominick Profaci  More than happy. Have a great weekend!

    Amy Dooley Mosbacher Thanks for this thread. It answers a lot of questions.

    Eric Schwartz  Wow. Way too much of a fact-based discussion in this thread...take it down a notch or two - feel free to wildly speculate on something. Thanks Mike, thanks Dominick.

    Steve Greenfield Thanks. We needed this.

    Hadley Taylor  agree. thanks so much for sharing your expertise.

    Terrence Quinn Just to make Eric crazy... Dominick is there an assumed/typical rate of production of the sulfides and mercapton... that is ... for every gallon of water into the plant, how much of the outputs can we expect. I know the actual value depends on whats in the individual waste stream, but what is assume when they do the sizing calculatin.

    Dominick Profaci Sorry Terry, there is no rule of thumb with hydrogen sulfide or any other odorant production from waste water. It is highly variable and dependent on the condition of the waste stream, waste water facility type and how it is operated, and environmental conditions (time of year and/or day, temps, barometric pressure, wind conditions, etc, etc). When I used to do odor studies, there was a ton of on-site analysis as well as "back in the office" odor identification (qualitative and quantitative), with a trained odor panel. I know, seems a bit much right? But, noxious odors that are produced in waste water treatment can be a major issue to the community that surrounds the facility; and unfortunately very difficult to impossible to mitigate. As an example, I spent nearly two years at the North River WWTP in NYC as an on-site process, operations, and odor control engineer trying to help them with odor mitigation - among other operational issues. This facility has one of the most advanced odor control systems available, but even today they still have regular odor complaints.

michael o'donnell fb post 12-19-2014 - town of new paltz response to feasibility study.pdf

Michael O'Donnell uploaded a file.

December 19 at 7:53am

Here is the rather enlightening letter from Dave Clouser (Town Engineer) to Joseph Moriello (Town Attorney) outlining the recent history of the South Putt Corners Sewage Treatment fiasco.

This document was never made public.

Town of New Paltz Response to Feasibility Study.pdf

video of np school board discussing proposed sewage plant next to high school

Clip of the New Paltz Board of Education discussing the proposed siting of a Town of New Paltz sewage treatment plant adjacent to New Paltz High School - from the December 3, 2014 Board of Education meeting

http://player.vimeo.com/video/113646472